Spell Test Server

[Weedler]

The only compelling argument I've seen against getting rid of the Int/Cha damage is the wizard spell slots. A level 20 caster on Avlis would do 20 Int damage with a maximized spell. Yes, Arkaz's currently is much more devastating (in line with PnP). As I said in IRC, it's supposed to be. It is meant to take the arcane caster out of the equation. Completely. (Which is also reason for the -4 to the save for arcane casters.)

A level 20 caster using the spell maximized (meaning a level 8 spell slot) would knock my level 10 sorc down to 14 charisma. Meaning he still has something left at his disposal, so that comparison holds no ground.

There's a lot of spells that don't fall in line with PnP because it's either A) Not possible or B) completely unbalanced in an NWN environement. This one falls easily under B.

You're talking about a level 5 spell (meaning a level 9 or 10 caster, which is low) that could reduce an epic caster to nothing more than a commoner, with no chance to resolve the issue without rest (and to put it into perspective, Caldo is a level 10 sorc and could cast this at DC27 already - include the -4 to the save and that's effectively DC31, which is still enough to cause a lot of people problems.) There's nothing even remotely close for any other class. Sure, you can remove the effects afterwards, but the mage is by this point is effectively baggage unless they are fortunate enough to be fully buffed.

For something like NWN, it's original implementation of a D4 / 5 levels meant that for it be be as powerful as it can be, they have to put the effort into it. Not just find a rogue with a Mords and Feeblemind scroll. Either that or the 100% failure for 1 or 2 rounds per caster level would still be bad enough, but not to the extreme of what you're suggesting.

There's already dispel, greater dispel, mords, various spell breaches and silence, all of which are challenging enough and can be deadly to a mage. This idea is OTT and unbalanced.

[Marcomartin]

Feeblemind for me is too devastating, but i don't think that this will caus any danger on my char. We can do d4 / ... levels drain int/char it's far more better.


Another thing, what can be done with Summon monster spells. I have used this spell some time, but it rather takes one precious slot than help in combat. Monsters are simply to weak.

[BrunoKnotslinger]

There's a lot of spells that don't fall in line with PnP because it's either A) Not possible or B) completely unbalanced in an NWN environement. This one falls easily under B.

You're talking about a level 5 spell (meaning a level 9 or 10 caster, which is low) that could reduce an epic caster to nothing more than a commoner, with no chance to resolve the issue without rest (and to put it into perspective, Caldo is a level 10 sorc and could cast this at DC27 already - include the -4 to the save and that's effectively DC31, which is still enough to cause a lot of people problems.) There's nothing even remotely close for any other class. Sure, you can remove the effects afterwards, but the mage is by this point is effectively baggage unless they are fortunate enough to be fully buffed.

If d4/5 levels or d4/4 levels is so balanced, then answer a question: How many times have you ever seen the spell used? I've ~never~ seen it used in my 3 years on CoPaP.

Phantasmal Killer, level 4 - Save (Will or Fort) or die. LEVEL FOUR.

Fear, level 4 - Save or run in fear for 1 round per level (otherwise known as baggage).

Dominate Person, level 5 - Save or become dominated for 2 rounds + 1 round / 3 levels (otherwise known as baggage).

Hold Monster, level 5 - Save or become paralyzed for 1 round per level (otherwise known as baggage).

Flesh to Stone, level 6 - Save or become stone until the caster rests (otherwise known as baggage).

Each of these are of similar level to Feeblemind, and each of these turns a single target into baggage, as you've put it. The difference is that these will turn ~anyone~ into baggage, not just arcane casters. So, yes, there's plenty that falls within "remotely close" to Feeblemind. That it takes a rest to resolve the effects completely (a lesser restore pot will restore the stat damage, but a rest is needed to restore the spells) is not, in my mind, an undue burden. Phantasmal Killer kills a PC dead. Sort your bags. Lose your buffs. If you and your party is in an area without rest, no new buffs for you. Your 1 use per day trinkets that you have for yourself? Sorry, can't use them until you rest again.

[terror2001]

Not to mention having to redo your spell slots anyway after returning from death. Personally, I'd like to see Feeblemind used more. Make people in general come up ways to protect themselves in case they are they are the target of it. If it wasn't deadly people would stay home on the farm and not be adventurers.

The only reason I see this as an issue is NWN doesn't retain what was in a spell slot when that spell slot is no longer available. But we already deal with this on death anyway. The upside to this is you don't immediately lose XP when you're feebleminded, unlike dying.

[terryrayc]

also remember that this isn't a one time thing. After we go live with the changes and if we discover over time that things need to be changed, we will make changes as needed. Again our goal isn't to make playing unfun, it's to balance, fix and get things more in line where they should be.

[Wireframe]

Phantasmal Killer, level 4 - Save (Will or Fort) or die. LEVEL FOUR.

Just as a point of order, you have to fail BOTH saves to die.

There's a lot of spells that don't fall in line with PnP because it's either A) Not possible or B) completely unbalanced in an NWN environement. This one falls easily under B.

While we're on the topic, having this spell do CHA damage isn't in line with PnP. In 3.0 (which NWN is based on), the spell only does Intelligence damage.

BrunoKnotslinger has argued that the spell is supposed to screw ALL arcane casters, since that's the way it works in 3.5. My response is that 3.5 was a debuff across the board for all casters -- dozens of spells were changed, and always to make casters weaker.

[BrunoKnotslinger]

BrunoKnotslinger has argued that the spell is supposed to screw ALL arcane casters, since that's the way it works in 3.5.

No. The reason for that argument is based on a careful reading of the 3.0 spell.

The subject's Intelligence score drops to 1. Still, the creature knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The creature remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effects. Creatures who can cast arcane spells or use arcane spell-like effects suffer a –4 penalty on their saving throws.

Emphasis added.

3.5 only modified the spell by adding the Charisma damage. Given the obvious intent of the spell, I decided to lean to the 3.5 version of the spell.

Let me make something clear. The point is not to make everything just like 3.0 PnP. PnP serves as our starting point, and we make changes/tweaks/modifications where we feel balance and the NWN PW would be better served. We haven't removed militant bonuses, e.g. Nor do we have any current plans to do so. Nobody's going to agree on everything. In the case of feeblemind, however, making it PnP is not unbalancing. Why? Because a PC will likely never use it on another PC. There are other better spells to use against an enemy caster in CvC (namely those that require a fort save). The AI isn't being modified to use this spell. About the only time I honestly seeing it being used is when a DM wants to toss something a bit different at a party.

Phantasmal Killer, level 4 - Save (Will or Fort) or die. LEVEL FOUR.

Just as a point of order, you have to fail BOTH saves to die.

Yes, that's what I said. The negation of "Will or Fort" is "not Will and not Fort".

[Wireframe]

Let me make something clear. The point is not to make everything just like 3.0 PnP[...] Nobody's going to agree on everything.

Clearly! I would also hope that people can have different opinions on an implementation issue without any bitterness.

In the case of feeblemind, however, making it PnP is not unbalancing. Why? Because a PC will likely never use it on another PC. There are other better spells to use against an enemy caster in CvC (namely those that require a fort save). The AI isn't being modified to use this spell. About the only time I honestly seeing it being used is when a DM wants to toss something a bit different at a party.

PnP serves as our starting point, and we make changes/tweaks/modifications where we feel balance and the NWN PW would be better served.

I don't think the primary concern is CvC. My feeling is that this spell (especially since it has a single target) is fairly useless for player characters fighting monsters. It's most useful for NPCs to use against players -- which is why I think some people dislike the idea of the spell becoming much more nasty.

But if you don't think any player will use this spell, and you really don't think it will be put in any dungeons, then why does this change serve "balance and the NWN PW?"

[BrunoKnotslinger]

But if you don't think any player will use this spell, and you really don't think it will be put in any dungeons, then why does this change serve "balance and the NWN PW?"

I believe I've already addressed my reasons rather succinctly (albeit buried in my usual long-windedness):

In the case of feeblemind, however, making it PnP is not unbalancing.

[Weedler]

Phantasmal Killer, level 4 - Save (Will or Fort) or die. LEVEL FOUR.

Fear, level 4 - Save or run in fear for 1 round per level (otherwise known as baggage).

Dominate Person, level 5 - Save or become dominated for 2 rounds + 1 round / 3 levels (otherwise known as baggage).

Hold Monster, level 5 - Save or become paralyzed for 1 round per level (otherwise known as baggage).

Flesh to Stone, level 6 - Save or become stone until the caster rests (otherwise known as baggage).

For phantasmal - a death spell's a death spell. It affect ~everyone~ the same.

As for the rest, you might not see PC's use them, but NPC's use them all the time and often to great effect. Also - the common denominator - Round/level effects that allow someone to continue ~if~ they survive.

Not to mention having to redo your spell slots anyway after returning from death.

You only lose those from items or stat increases from items. Not every single spell available right down to cantrips.

Comparing this to death doesn't work either. Firstly, everyone is open to dying and secondly, a lot of PC's rest before returning, so aside from use/day items, gain back the majority of stuff anyway.


To be honest, every argument for this change as it is so far has been answered already, often with the same answers being repeated, so for that reason I'm not arguing it anymore. I'll simply say right here 'see above'

Sorry for the side tracking of this forum when so much good is being done with everything else, but this particular spell stands out like reaver at a healer convention.

Psye